Chapters:
00:01 Intro
00:31 Meet Sister John Mary Sullivan
01:20 Family, Tragedy, and the Seeds of Vocation
04:45 Discovering the Franciscan Sisters of the Eucharist
08:56 Formation, Vows, and Embracing Religious Life
10:34 Serving Through Marriage & Family Ministry
16:57 Visiting Schools and Inspiring Young Hearts
23:56 From Arizona to Vancouver: Answering the Call
27:08 Moments of Profound Impact in Ministry
34:33 Poverty, Chastity & Obedience: Witnessing Joy Beyond Culture
39:12 Countercultural Living: Poverty, Chastity, and Obedience
42:18 How God Works Through Everyday Encounters
46:05 Encouragement for Young People Discerning Their Call
49:40 Final Reflections on Faith, Family, and Community
57:29 Outro
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In this inspiring episode of Catholic Education Matters, host Troy Van Vliet chats with Sister John Mary Sullivan – a Franciscan Sister of the Eucharist. Sr. John Mary shares her journey of faith and vocation, reflecting on how her upbringing in a large family, personal loss, and the witness of her parents’ love shaped her call to religious life. She describes her years of formation, her work as a marriage and family therapist, and her work with the Archdiocese of Vancouver, where she served as an Associate Director for the Ministries and Outreach Office for ten years. With stories of visiting schools, mentoring young women discerning religious life, and accompanying couples through both joy and grief, Sr. John Mary highlights the transformative power of faith, community, and sacrificial love, while offering a powerful witness to the radical joy found in living for God.
Note: this episode was recorded in April 2025, one month before Sr. John Mary moved back to Connecticut to serve as the Director of the Franciscan Life Center – a licensed outpatient mental health facility run by the Franciscan Sisters of the Eucharist near their motherhouse in Meriden, Connecticut.
Transcript:
[00:00:00] Intro: Welcome to Catholic Education Matters, the podcast that celebrates the beauty of Catholic education, highlighting excellence in academics, athletics, and the transformative power of faith. Join us as we share the stories of those making a lasting impact on Catholic education. Let’s begin.
[00:00:25] Troy Van Vliet: Welcome everyone. Thank you for joining us here again today, and I am really excited to have Sister John Mary Sullivan.
[00:00:34] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Thank you.
[00:00:35] Troy Van Vliet: And I’m so glad to have you here today. And you’re are, well, let’s call it working because it is work. You’re here at the Vancouver Archdiocese.
[00:00:44] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: That’s right.
[00:00:45] Troy Van Vliet: And how long have you been here for?
[00:00:47] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: So, I’ve served here for the Archdiocese for almost ten years now. I was missioned out here in 2015 and getting close to the ten year mark.
[00:00:58] Troy Van Vliet: So then let’s go back further.
[00:01:00] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Sure.
[00:01:02] Troy Van Vliet: You are a sister of I’ve wrote this written down, a Franciscan sister of the Eucharist.
[00:01:07] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: That’s right.
[00:01:08] Troy Van Vliet: Alright. And so how did you get to where you are today?
[00:01:14] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Good question. A question that is often asked of religious sisters. How did you discern your vocation? How did you discover your vocation? So, I always go way back to the beginning.
[00:01:28] So, I’m one of 10 children, so a very large family. And my parents had a tremendous relationship, a profound love of one another, Just a goodness, a joy in their marriage. And that could have been radically different. So, our oldest brother John, there were nine of us at the time. John was hit by a car.
[00:01:49] Troy Van Vliet: Oh, no.
[00:01:50] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: And it was a fatal accident. So, and he was 11 years old and they had eight others behind. And so that radically obviously shifted our family. And in the end, through the grace of God, I would say it radically shift us in the most beautiful, positive way. In that the faith community came around us so strongly, allowed and helped my parents grieve together, together get through the sorrow of the death of their son, their firstborn son, but really accompanied the whole family through that process. And then about two years later, our youngest Pete was born and sort of sparked life back into the family. But all that I think was foundational to my own call because I had a deep sense of the importance of our faith, a faith community, the goodness of life, and then the witness of my parents, their sacrificial love that they had for one another, all really set me up for my own discernment with a religious calling.0
[00:03:11] Troy Van Vliet: So, have to ask, where do you fall in the ten?
[00:03:14] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: So, six boys and the first girl. Six boys, three girls and Pete, we say. And Pete. Very typical life in terms of growing up. I loved sports, played basketball and soccer throughout high school, and then went to a small Catholic university in Dallas.
[00:03:38] I’m from The States and so grew up in Phoenix, Arizona. Went to a small Catholic university in Dallas, University of Dallas, and had the opportunity to be in really great relationships, dated some really fine young men. But there was always something because my parents sort of set the standard of what it meant to love and to be loved. There was always something where I felt, I don’t see it being what I saw in my parents’ relationship. I didn’t see the potential there, as good as they were.
[00:04:10] And they were good relationships. So, was just something that held me back from it. But my siblings were all getting married, having children, so there’s a natural draw to that. I went then to Washington, D. C.
[00:04:23] To study at the John Paul II Institute on marriage and family. And while I was there, I met our community, the Franciscan Sisters Eucharist. And I started interacting, we do a lot of work on the land Franciscan, so I would go on Saturdays and work on the land with the sisters. There was something at some point I recognized that the love that I saw in my parents’ marriage was possible in terms of my relationship to my community, to this community of women. That for the first time I saw that potential in my relationship.
[00:05:05] And so for me, was relatively easy. Some people really grapple, but it was like when I encountered that and experienced that and I already had the standard set by my parents, it was clear to me that this was a real potentially my vocation. And I had the complete support of my parents, of my siblings. They’ve been wonderful throughout this whole process. But it’s a nine year process of becoming a professed sister.
[00:05:38] So, the early stages are discernment stages and I gave myself to those early stages.
[00:05:47] Troy Van Vliet: How long has it been then? I guess from the end of the nine years?
00:05:51.290 –> 00:05:59.825
Sr. John Mary Sullivan: So, from the end of the nine years now it has been it was 2012. So, what is that now?
[00:06:00] Troy Van Vliet: 2012 is when you graduated?
[00:06:03] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: I made my final vows just over twelve years. So, in those nine years you take temporary vows. So, six years of temporary vows. So, that’s where we sort of count our vows on. So, it’s been close to twenty years of vowed commitment.
[00:06:25] Sroy Van Vliet: Okay, so earlier on you do your six years of temporary notice. So, that means there’s like an out at the Yes, end exactly. Of those you’re committing out.
[00:06:34] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: So, it’s in a three year process. So, every three years you discern, you speak with the community.
[00:06:45] Troy Van Vliet: So, I have to ask then, during the nine years, were there times of doubt Yeah. That you
[00:06:53] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: would say probably the most doubt I had was early on. And once again, it was a strong draw to marriage and family life. Like I said, my siblings are getting married, they’re having children, the beauty and goodness of all that. It’s sort of what I always had in mind in terms of living out a vocation of love. And so it was that like doubt in the sense that can I know the fullness that I’ve seen lived out in a religious call?
[00:07:27] And so I had to grapple with that early on. And one of the sisters who was one of my formators said to me, This is the essential grapple, the thing you have to grapple with because you have to see the goodness of marriage and family life. And you have to have a capacity to be a wife and mother in order to have the fullness of a religious call. If it’s just you
[00:07:55] Troy Van Vliet: don’t have that, then oh wow.
[00:07:57] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: If you’re just going to religious life because the other doesn’t look good or you quit, know, then it’s a running from rather than a running to someone.
[00:08:08] Troy Van Vliet: So, that’s part of the process. They obviously go through that with you and pull that out of you.
[00:08:13] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: That’s right. Especially in those first two years within our community, it’s an intense questioning time. And very good. And I would have to say after that entering novitiate, where you get your religious name and you get your habit and fail, there wasn’t as much of that internal struggle for me. It’s just more, how am I going to live this?
[00:08:36] The day to day striving to live more fully,
[00:08:41] Troy Van Vliet: And where you believe you’re called how has it been? Give us a day in the life or a year in the life.
[00:08:49] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Of a religious sister.
[00:08:50] Troy Van Vliet: Yes, what are all these incredible things that you get to do? Because I know there are so many.
[00:08:54] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: I have to say the nine years of formation are a huge, huge gift because it’s really nine years of coming to know yourself more deeply, striving to see yourself as God sees you in order then to allow yourself to be made a gift. And it was nine years of real guidance in that of self discovery and growth in my capacity to give myself to love more intensely. So, at our mother house, it’s different than when you’re on mission. So, in mother house, especially early on, you do a lot of once again work. We have farmland and gardens and animals, so a lot of work on the land.
[00:09:48] But in our community, you also are discerning. If you don’t already have sort of a professional orientation, you’re discerning that as well and potentially going back to school to study in a particular professional area. So, I came in with theology, a Master’s in Theology, but my community asked me to go back at some point to us to discern and do a Master’s in Marriage and Family Therapy. So, that’s what I ended up doing.
[00:10:22] Troy Van Vliet: Interesting. So, I’m assuming you implement that and what you do.
[00:10:29] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Yes. When I was back at our mother house, we have a licensed outpatient clinic, so a psychiatric outpatient. So, did clinical work at the clinic for eight years before being missioned out here.
[00:10:42] Troy Van Vliet: And
[00:10:43] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: here, I use it, but I don’t do direct clinical work. So, I work in marriage and family ministry for the archdiocese, which has been a real gift because I get to sort of marry, if you will, my theological formation with my professional formation. And so, it’s things like marriage formation courses, marriage enrichment workshops, and parenting workshops that we provide across the archdiocese.
[00:11:16] Troy Van Vliet: So, it’s totally in your genre.
[00:11:20] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Yes, that’s right.
[00:11:21] Troy Van Vliet: But you’re not doing clinical stuff, you’re not doing That’s the one on right. One at this Do you miss that? Do you wish you could do that?
[00:11:28] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: I do love it. And I know I will return to it at some point. But I also have to say I’ve really appreciated the work that I have been doing for the archdiocese because it’s also allowed me to develop other areas professionally, like just administratively and then working with a team because I have a wonderful team of coordinators that I work with.
[00:11:59] Troy Van Vliet: And how many would be on your team?
[00:12:02] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: We are five total. Which is great. The archbishop has been wonderful in terms of providing the resources we need to carry forward the ministry.
[00:12:15] Troy Van Vliet: Oh, it’s such an important part. What you’re doing is such an important part. I mean, I’m learning all of this about you now, which is great. It’s a genuine interview. I’m not just trying to pull things out of you that I already know.
[00:12:28] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: It’s true.
[00:12:29] Troy Van Vliet: Yeah, that’s great. So, now we’re getting a new archbishop.
[00:12:35] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: That’s right. Archbishop Smith is coming.
[00:12:37] Troy Van Vliet: Yes. And I’m sure he’ll give you the same support that Archbishop Miller.
[00:12:41] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: I was able to have a brief meeting with him. He met with all the associate directors in Ministries and Outreach. One thing that we’ve done in the last few years is implement marriage mentorship as part of marriage formation. So, we’ve always had a course, a six week course that we run. But in the last five years, we’ve introduced some parishes have embraced it, some are not there yet.
[00:13:05] But that also includes marriage mentorship.
[00:13:10] Troy Van Vliet: Now is any of what you do tied in with marriage prep? Yes.
[00:13:16] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: So, marriage prep, we have a coordinator who runs the marriage prep courses and the marriage mentorship would be a component of that formation. But we’re a unique situation here in the archdiocese is that the marriage course that engaged couples go through is centralized. There are some dioceses where it’s parish by parish or maybe deanaries, but here almost everyone who gets married goes through this course. We have about just over 500 couples each year that go through the course.
[00:13:55] Troy Van Vliet: Fantastic. That’s great.
[00:13:57] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: What we recognize is that mentorship is key because they can go through a six week course and never set foot in their parish church. And mentorship is a way of tying them back to the faith community if they identify a couple that they can then journey with.
[00:14:16] Troy Van Vliet: So now what about courses like Engaged Encounter or Marriage Encounter or anything? Does that fall under your umbrella at all?
[00:14:23] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: In terms of we’re very, very grateful of those ministries that are not directly archdiocesan ministries, but they’re serving in the area of marriage and family and we work very closely. So whether it’s through promotion or providing some form of support in terms of even registration and stuff, So, work closely with World Wide Marriage Encounter, both their Spanish Association and English speaking. The other great ministry is Retrouvaille, which not many people know of.
[00:14:59] Troy Van Vliet: I’ve never heard of that one.
[00:15:00] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Yeah, it’s a wonderful resource for marriages that are struggling deeply. In fact, they work with couples who maybe are already separated. And so, it is a ministry to those who are most in need of support. So they run usually twice a year, they run a retreat.
[00:15:24] Troy Van Vliet: And is that an archdiocese thing or Catholic thing?
[00:15:27] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: It’s a Catholic thing. It is a Catholic ministry, but not directly run by the archdiocese. It’s actually international, Retrouvaille and Worldwide Marriage Encounters. They’re both international Catholic.
[00:15:40] Troy Van Vliet: I did know the Marriage Encounter one, but not the Retrouvaille one. So one’s kind of more enhancing, one might be more rescue.
[00:15:49] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Yes, exactly. With worldwide marriage encounter, also those who are struggling, it will be very helpful for them. We But like to remind people that marriage enrichment is important. It’s not only when you’re struggling, but the potential in your marriage to be flourishing. It’s what God wants and desires for each and every couple and family.
[00:16:19] And so something like Worldwide Marriage Encounter, a weekend with your spouse, exploring more deeply your relationship and ways you can more profoundly live it is important as well.
[00:16:34] Troy Van Vliet: Much to learn about everything.
[00:16:36] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: I know, isn’t that true?
[00:16:38] Troy Van Vliet: Relationships, faith, everything. We never stop. It’s this crazy journey that we’re all
[00:16:45] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: That’s right.
[00:16:46] Troy Van Vliet: So, you get to go to, I mean, we’re about Catholic education and you do get to visit some of the schools, which must be the highlight of it.
[00:16:59] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: It is.
[00:17:03] Troy Van Vliet: Walk us through that. What does that look like when you get to come It visit a
[00:17:08] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: is a joy. It really is a joy. Children are naturally curious, as you know. And so, especially the young ones, they’ll ask every and tangentially, they’ll go in every direction. But even just for them to be introduced to religious life, because for many of them, they may have never encountered a religious sister.
[00:17:32] They know priests, but it’s unusual for a religious sister nowadays to be in our schools. There are a few that are in our schools. So, just giving them the opportunity to encounter, a religious sister, to just know that there’s another way to live a life of love and that it can be profoundly fulfilling. And then just being a wit truly as a religious sister, what you come to know is that people respond to you, not because of anything that they respond to personally, but because I think people desire God and our children desire God. And so I get to be a witness to them of God. And so to be able to go into the schools and
[00:18:24] Troy Van Vliet: answer some of those innocent questions.
[00:18:26] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Exactly.
[00:18:27] Troy Van Vliet: What would be an example of some of the questions?
[00:18:31] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Often they’ll ask, How did you know? Or How can I know? Or the classic ones are, Do you wear that to sleep? Do you get to go swimming? All those like curious ones, you know. So some of those more simple questions. But as they get older and maybe have a more like really start to question some of these things, the questions become a little more profound.
[00:18:59] Troy Van Vliet: Do you think that you’ve maybe had any influence on any young girls, young women that might be considering?
[00:19:09] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: I think our community as a whole, this has been a real blessing for us in Vancouver when Archbishop Miller invited us here. He said to us, I think there are young women who have vocations. And since in the last ten years, we do have four young women from Vancouver who are in the formation process.
[00:19:33] Troy Van Vliet: So they’re all from your order?
[00:19:35] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Our community. And so, that has been wonderful to have these young women from Vancouver discerning with our community has been great. And we’ve had two others that came discerned and discerned that it wasn’t their call, which is also part of the process and really something we celebrate and we remain very good friends with these young women. I
[00:20:02] Troy Van Vliet: had a nephew that went through becoming a priest. Same thing, you know, all those steps that you go through of discernment and then it was right at the end where like, yeah, no, it wasn’t.
[00:20:16] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: And he probably does not regret that time.
[00:20:19] Troy Van Vliet: No. Well, don’t
[00:20:20] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: think he does. He’s probably a better husband and father because of his time of discernment.
[00:20:28] Troy Van Vliet: I would agree. He’s the oldest of my brother’s five boys. And he’s fantastic. So we’re really That’s great. Yeah. And he knew his wife today. He knew before.
[00:20:41] He from high school. Actually knew from, I was talking about this with my mom the other day, kindergarten. That’s where they met and they went through school all the way together.
[00:20:51] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Isn’t that helpful?
[00:20:52] Troy Van Vliet: And then he had to tell her that he’s going.
[00:20:56] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Yes.
[00:20:57] Troy Van Vliet: Yeah, he’s entering the priesthood, which was not received well, I think. And then came back and she hadn’t married, she hadn’t found somebody else. I think she made him wait in terms of, no, I got to think about this. You need to be punished. You left me.
[00:21:17] Sarah, if you’re listening, I’m sorry, I’m making some of this stuff up. Anyway, yeah, that’s the general story.
[00:21:24] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Yeah, that is great.
[00:21:25] Troy Van Vliet: Yeah, so I do. I think it was probably a great journey for both of them.
[00:21:29] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: For both of them.
[00:21:30] Troy Van Vliet: Yeah, even though so many of these things you go through might be painful or challenging at the time, but there could be a reason. Absolutely. It’s like, oh my goodness.
[00:21:39] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Always. Yeah, and that’s something you learn is that usually the painful struggles are what we learn most from and are formed by.
[00:21:50] Troy Van Vliet: Yes, yes. Well, and nothing worth doing is really easy. Nothing of any great reward comes easy. Right.
[00:21:58] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: And just an openness. That’s the one thing going to schools and speaking to young men and women is just encouraging them to be open to what God desires. It doesn’t mean that they have to have it all figured out, but that they ask our Lord to reveal to them. And if they can get quiet enough for a moment, they might be able to hear.
[00:22:23] Troy Van Vliet: It
[00:22:26] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: is good.
[00:22:26] Troy Van Vliet: When you get to go to a school, is it sort of a formal presentation or do you just get to go and just be and mingling with the kids?
[00:22:36] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Usually it would be more of a formal invitation. Maybe I’ll go per class. Sometimes it’s an assembly, so I might be in front of the whole school. It’s sort of nice when you get to go per class because you can sort of tailor what you say according to the age group and what may be of interest. And I have the magic power to win over any child, and that is I can juggle.
[00:23:03] Oh, wow. So people love children actually people but children particularly love that. I usually take some juggling balls in too.
[00:23:12] Troy Van Vliet: You do chainsaws and everything? No, knives,
[00:23:15] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: but not chainsaws. Haven’t got there yet.
[00:23:18] Troy Van Vliet: Good for you. So, that’s a talent you learned when you were young.
[00:23:22] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Yes. I was I think in grade five when I first learned to juggle and people love it. But once again, it’s a way to engage the children and sort of relax the whole situation. Then they are more free to ask their questions.
[00:23:41] Troy Van Vliet: So how did you end up in Vancouver? Archbishop Miller was saying we would like some
[00:23:47] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Religious sisters. We’ve known as a community, we’ve known Archbishop Miller probably thirty to forty years. So, a young priest, when he was studying in Rome, he came to know our sisters in Rome. So, we have sisters in Rome, Assisi, The Holy Land, Vancouver, and then The US. And so, we knew him for many years.
[00:24:13] He then was the president of St. Thomas in Houston and when he became president there, he asked our sisters to come and teach there. So, some of our sisters teach our professors and teach at a collegiate So, they were out there with him and he went to Rome again and then finally became archbishop here. So, he had asked if our sisters would come out and serve within the diocese. And it’s so enlightened.
[00:24:43] They were looking for someone in the area of marriage and family and I had sort of the perfect profile to fill that position. So, what happens so I was working for our counseling center and I remember very clearly in a session with a client and the phone rings, which is very unusual that you get interrupted during a session. And it was our mother general, mother Sean at the time. She said, Can we meet at lunchtime? And I’m like, Oh, something’s going on.
[00:25:20] And then she asked, would I be open to being missioned out to Vancouver? Which to be honest, I didn’t even know where Vancouver was. I’m so unaware of Canada in general, so never had been to Canada.
[00:25:34] Troy Van Vliet: But you were just in Washington State?
[00:25:36] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: No, Arizona. What
[00:25:42] Troy Van Vliet: was the Washington part? What did I get? Did I confuse something?
[00:25:45] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Oh, Washington DC. I studied in Washington DC. That’s So,
[00:25:53] Troy Van Vliet: you went from desert to rain.
[00:25:57] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: That’s right.
[00:25:59] Troy Van Vliet: So, still adjusting, I bet.
[00:26:01] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Yeah, I have to say maybe because we had such a lack of rain, I actually very much enjoy the rain. I appreciate the rain. And then being out on the East Coast in Connecticut where our mother house, we get all four seasons. That’s awesome.
[00:26:18] Troy Van Vliet: Yes, I know. It’s funny if vacationing in a desert type area, coming home and noticing the instant lushness that’s in your face when you arrive here.
[00:26:27] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Isn’t it amazing, the difference?
[00:26:29] Troy Van Vliet: Is. Then So you do tend to welcome the rain a
[00:26:32] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: little bit more. Can hold it in a better light. That is very true.
[00:26:35] Troy Van Vliet: That’s great. That’s super. And I’ll ask you this with interacting with students or I’ll put families, couples in your time. Have you had a big impact that an incident or not an incident, just interaction that stands out with you that you think wow, I impacted that couple’s life or that student’s life or anything like that in such a profound way that resonates with you still today?
[00:27:07] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: I have to say I actually taught for two years before becoming a mental health counselor. And those two years were very informative.
[00:27:19] Troy Van Vliet: Where was that?
[00:27:20] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Doctor. Was back in The States. So, one year when I was postulant with our community, I taught inner city, grade eight. Truly, as much as it was discerned I wouldn’t continue to teach and I’d go into mental health, but part of it was the encounter with the children, seeing the struggles that they were facing, and being much more interested in trying to address some of those issues than to teach the history course that I had to teach. So, that experience in the classroom actually was key in terms of helping me discern and helping the community discern that maybe it is in counseling that I find more fulfillment, which it’s true.
[00:28:08] But as a mental health professional and serving in areas of marriage and family, the great privilege I have is being invited into some of the most intimate moments of a family life. Ones probably that have stood out the most since being here and serving here twice. I’ve been called, a young couple calling me where they had just lost their child, stillborn, and asking if I would come. And so twice entering into these hospital rooms with the body of this little guy, these both boys and this young couple grieving the loss of their child. And yet this is what’s most impactful is to see them truly suffer well And to allow this suffering to take them deeper into their relationship where so often it can divide.
[00:29:21] These couples that I witnessed, just saw both of them appreciate each other and really lean into each other and lean into their faith together as they grieve the loss of their child. Those interactions will stay with me forever. And you see the goodness and the profound beauty of what marriage life can be when you see them live through those situations. And then it calls me to a higher level, I think, of commitment to my own vocation, know, that witness.
[00:30:03] Troy Van Vliet: That must have also felt like a massive privilege to be there in
[00:30:08] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: that time. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Not everyone gets to be part of an experience And like just to be able to be welcomed in, to be able to walk with them.
[00:30:23] And often in both cases, you don’t have words to comfort at those moments, you know? So it’s really just an opportunity to be present with. Great privilege.
[00:30:41] Troy Van Vliet: In that time of privilege with them, did you feel that you also had something to offer, that you brought something For sure. Of
[00:30:53] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Yeah. I mean, I think the whole reason I was invited into those moments is once again, even when it’s not at a conscious level, to have someone who represents the faith, someone who represents God in this most vulnerable moment. And so just to be there as a representative of our church, of our God, and holding them in that manner.
[00:31:26] Troy Van Vliet: So
[00:31:28] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: I know because to be honest, I didn’t even know these couples well, but I had some interaction from a retreat and from marriage formation courses. So they knew who I was. And so just to be able to represent the church in those moments.
[00:31:49] Troy Van Vliet: Yeah. To call you.
[00:31:51] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Yeah. To be able to be called in and for them to feel held by our church. Once again is a great privilege of being called to religious life is that you get to witness that.
[00:32:09] Troy Van Vliet: I hope you get to share these kinds of stories with lots of people because it’s something that, you know, kids, young adults that are considering being called to religious vocation of some sort, that they can hear these kinds of things of where you can make a difference in someone’s life and have an impact.
[00:32:31] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Yeah, because as you know, our young people, they desire greatness. They desire to love radically. In fact, I’ve heard our biggest problem as a church is that we’ve been almost not radical enough in terms our young people want to give themselves to something that is radical. We have the greatest radical call, it’s love to the point of death. And so if we can put forth sort of paint that picture for them and say, this is what you could be called into.
[00:33:10] Troy Van Vliet: I think society in general is starving for that. They don’t even know what they’re starving, but they don’t know what it is. Know, we’re looking for it online. We’re looking forward in the next Instagram reel or what have you. And we’re constantly being bombarded with things that really are unfulfilling, but we’re being told we should have or should want or should desire.
[00:33:34] These are the things if you don’t have this, you’ve failed.
[00:33:38] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: That’s right.
[00:33:39] Troy Van Vliet: It’s easy to get caught up in that. And our poor young kids today with our electronics, we’re walking, we’re cyborgs walking around with these things, you know, you can’t leave home without it. It’s like, where’s my phone? I forgot my phone or, you know, it’s like, how am I going to get to see the next reel? I’m going to miss something.
[00:34:04] Life is staring us in the face and we’re missing it.
[00:34:09] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: That’s right. We don’t have the relational anchoring that is so necessary and so what we desire. It is interesting because we take the three vows of poverty, chastity and obedience, some of the kids are like, wait, like when I go to speak to students and they say, and I explain the three vows we take.
[00:34:36] Troy Van Vliet: When I So poverty, chastity And obedience. And obedience.
[00:34:40] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Yes. And so, it cuts across everything our culture says fulfills you, right? Sex, money, and your own freedom.
[00:34:50] Troy Van Vliet: And freedom, whatever you want
[00:34:51] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: all the time. Exactly. So, of course, our children who, even as much as we protect them, they’re influenced by our culture like all of us. So when you say, I’m never gonna have sex, I’m never gonna own anything of my own. If someone asked me to go to Vancouver, I’d go to Vancouver.
[00:35:12] Yeah. They’re sort of thrown by that. A lot of young people are like, wait, wait, and you’re happy? You know? I had this one young man.
[00:35:26] Yeah. I we didn’t own cell phones because we didn’t need cell phones. And he’s like, alright, sister, you don’t own a cell phone. I’m like, no, don’t own a cell phone. No.
[00:35:37] Really, you don’t. No. I don’t. He’s like, no. No.
[00:35:40] They brainwashed you. They brainwashed you. And I said to this young man, you tell me, how happy are you with your phone? Like, in about a half a year, you’re gonna want a new one. Right?
[00:35:54] And he’s like, well, if there’s a new one out. Exactly. And I’m like, I’m not driven by that. I’m happy with what I have and what I’ve been given, and there’s a freedom in not having and not being possessed by what we possess. So it allows us to be a witness of that, that there’s something greater that fulfills us and what the world has
[00:36:18] Troy Van Vliet: to offer. We need more of that. We need so much more of that because I think society is starving for it and don’t even know it. You know, depression is at an all time high and it’s like, do we have? We have more than we’ve ever had in the history of the world that we know it.
[00:36:36] And everybody’s unhappy.
[00:36:40] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Exactly. Yeah.
[00:36:42] Troy Van Vliet: You know, we’re born complainers.
[00:36:47] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Innate, we all grumble and rumble.
[00:36:49] Troy Van Vliet: Yeah, exactly. And yet we’ve so got much to be grateful for.
[00:36:53] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: And that’s once again the great, like even in terms of wearing the habit, you’re a witness, of course, when you go into school, Catholic school, there are some, but just being out and about, recently we were in a parking lot and getting out of the car, three of us, and this young woman hurries by, she’s carrying food to go, and she stops and she says, why are you all so happy? Literally. And I don’t even think we were doing anything. You guys look so happy. And she’s like, why?
[00:37:28] I said, well, what I asked, why do you think we’re happy? Like, what makes you happy? And she said, money. This is her first response. I said, does money really make you happy?
[00:37:37] She’s like, actually, no. And she was like, what would make me happy is my mom’s health, if she was healthier. And so she was getting deeper and deeper, but she still wanted to know why we were so happy. It’s quite simply and I said, it’s because we have God. You know?
[00:37:55] Something much
[00:37:55] Troy Van Vliet: more You did manage to get that out. Like, you got to say that to her. Yeah.
[00:37:58] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: And she and I said, well, pray for your mother. And she thanked us and went her way. But there’s those moments where you get to witness, which is a gift.
[00:38:10] Troy Van Vliet: So being out in public, what’s that like? What is that when you’re out on your own and and you’re wearing a so it stands out somewhat.
[00:38:25] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: It stands out somewhat. And what I’ve noticed here in the West Coast, especially I think the Northwest, they really don’t know, like they don’t know that I’m necessarily a religious sister. They’re not quite sure what I am.
[00:38:41] Troy Van Vliet: Could be just the way you’re dressed.
[00:38:43] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: I Need
[00:38:44] Troy Van Vliet: a bigger cross sister. Exactly.
[00:38:47] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: There’s been times literally where this was really funny. Downtown Vancouver, I was at a convention down and walking down the street and this young man who’s smoking marijuana walks by me. And he looks at me and he says, where are you from? And I say, are you wondering, like, what I am? And she’s like, yeah.
[00:39:12] What are you? And so I said, I’m a religious sister. Roman Catholic religious sister. He’s like, oh. And he looks at he’s he has this blunt.
[00:39:21] Right? And he’s looks he’s like, and you’re not yelling at me. I said, I’m not gonna yell at you. And then he says, do you want some?
[00:39:30] Troy Van Vliet: Do you
[00:39:30] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: want some? He said, I’m good. Thank you.
[00:39:33] Troy Van Vliet: Very good.
[00:39:34] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: So in some ways, I have found being here an opportunity to witness in a way that in other areas of like the East Coast where they’re maybe more familiar with religious, that we stand sort of apart even more so. So there’s an awareness, you know, whenever I’m out, I know people are looking. But that’s two things. It’s a gift in terms of being able to witness to our church, to our God. But it also holds me.
[00:40:11] It makes me I’m aware that people are looking. And so I have to live in a manner, a recognition that I am not my own. That I represent my community, I represent our church, I represent our God. And therefore, it holds me accountable to live in a way that speaks of worthiness to represent that. So it holds me in terms of how I interact and even if I get frustrated or that it calls me to a higher way of being.
[00:40:52] Yeah,
[00:40:53] Troy Van Vliet: I’m sure it does. Yeah, it wouldn’t be good flipping out on somebody. It’s funny. It’s like if I’m driving my car that doesn’t have any company stickers on
[00:41:05] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: it or
[00:41:06] Troy Van Vliet: I’m driving the truck that’s got company stickers on it, I have to behave a little differently or I have to be more conscious of I behave well when I’m
[00:41:13] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: driving. I’m just
[00:41:14] Troy Van Vliet: saying there has and it’s happened with people within our company that do have stickers on that we get calls. Yeah, exactly. Somebody from your company is, you know, so I can see what you’re saying. I know we all have that. You know, it’s even wearing a cross.
[00:41:33] This is a reminder for me that I need to be on my best behavior all the time as well because representing if not just myself, I’m representing the family, but the faith as well.
[00:41:49] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: And to your children that you represent. Much one more
[00:41:54] Troy Van Vliet: 100%. It’s funny, it’s not something that I wore for a long time and then I started wearing again.
[00:42:00] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: That’s great.
[00:42:01] Troy Van Vliet: It’s a good little reminder. It is. It’s like, And it’s an outward sign to everybody around you too. That’s right. I’m a man of faith and I’m trying to do better.
[00:42:16] I’m not perfect all the time, but keep striving. Exactly. So, and I’ll ask you this. Is there something that you absolutely love about what you do that you just cherish to no end that you just think like, oh, this is what I’m here for?
[00:42:35] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Well, I would say two things. One is the joy of living community life is quite profound. Like a marriage, there are moments of struggle and moments you have to work through. But the depth of friendship that I’ve known in community life with my sisters, there’s a level of just goodness and intimacy and of love that I get to experience. And in the joys and sorrows of life that I know that my sisters walk with me, that I’m held.
[00:43:26] So that’s something where and it’s key because that’s what holds me as I go out and serve others. Just like a married couple, the strength of their marriage is what holds them as they then serve the needs of their children. But how important it is for couples to keep working on their own relationship because that’s their greatest witness to their children. And for me, it’s my religious community that holds me. And our founders would say, you can go as far out as you are centered or held by the community.
[00:44:06] So, it’s just, yeah, there’s such a profound goodness that I’ve experienced in community life. And then I have to say the opportunity to serve with here in the archdiocese, I’ve had the great privilege of serving with laymen and women of priests, our bishop, to be able to serve and be the fullness of the church. Because as we know, our church is made up of the lay faithful, consecrated and ordained priesthood and archbishops or bishops. And so being here in the last ten years, I’ve really been able to, like, have a full experience of being church, you know, and that that is profoundly fulfilling. And to see laymen and women love and serve the church as much as any religious or priests.
[00:45:07] And to see priests who are fully embracing their priesthood and find it to be a privilege to especially bring the sacraments to our people. So, that opportunity, I have to say. And then also working alongside with other religious communities. So it’s just been such an experience of the fullness of our church, which is great.
[00:45:34] Troy Van Vliet: Well, what you’re working on specifically with marriages, that has such a massive impact on our communities. I think that, and I’ve said this several times even on other podcasts, I find that when we’ve had the not collapse of the church, but when it is struggling and what it’s being replaced by is not something similar. It’s either by government or it’s by other things that people are chasing. Once the church starts to struggle and crumble, then the families And start to when the families are struggling, then all of society starts to struggle because there’s so many things that start falling, but we’ve lost what’s grounded us.
[00:46:24] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Well, all the way back to Aristotle. Aristotle said the central cell of society is the family and the heart of the family is the marriage. So that’s key. But then Pope John Paul II really emphasized, he would say, As the family goes, so goes the church, so goes society. And so, why I find it so fulfilling serving in the area of marriage and family is I really absolutely know that as we strengthen our marriages, as we strengthen our families, we strengthen our church as a whole.
[00:47:12] And we help parents speaking of like education, helping parents to truly understand their role as primary educators of their children. And then I also have many opportunities to work with the various staffs of our schools and to help them see the importance of families in the schools and that it’s a collaboration, that it’s not taking over or usurping the role of parents, but it’s assisting the parent who is the primary educator in educating their children. It’s so key and so fundamental to a strong faith community.
[00:48:03] Troy Van Vliet: Kids aren’t just learning at school, they’re learning at home. And it doesn’t mean with formal homework. Exactly. In what you do, you’ve got so much experience in dealing with families and marriage and what have you. Is there a top one or two or three things that you think maybe couples have false expectation going into marriage or what marriage is supposed to be like and then the flame starts to flicker over time or it starts to fade.
[00:48:40] And then is there three key areas that you think you’ve now I’ve just picked a random number of three, but it might be one, it might be the key area that helps a family and specifically more specifically a marriage I stick
[00:48:56] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: think couples have to be willing to battle for their marriages, that they together fight to keep that love. That’s why it’s so important to not sort of stay complacent. We’re good. That’s always a worry when you hear a couple say, We’re good. Versus striving for the greatness.
[00:49:25] Because you’re either it’s life in general, but as a couple, you’re either growing and developing deepening your relationship or really you’re sliding. You don’t just stay.
[00:49:36] Troy Van Vliet: Those are tough words.
[00:49:40] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: And so to battle for it, to be willing to battle for.
[00:49:45] Troy Van Vliet: What does that look like? What is that practically speaking?
[00:49:49] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: I think what it looks like often is a recognition of this is the challenge of daily dying to self. To put the good of the other first. That’s what love, Aquinas, classic definition of love is to will the good of the other and to find so daily little ways to will the good
[00:50:14] Troy Van Vliet: Daily of your choices and decisions, And aren’t
[00:50:18] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: sometimes they’re in the smallest but most meaningful ways. It could be he’s been out late and the garbage has to go out. I’ll put it out so when he comes home, it’s out. It’s little, I really believe it’s this is the thing, if you work on it, if you work on willing the good of the other daily in those small little ways, then when it becomes big, when you really have to face a big moment in your marriage, you are much more ready to give yourself over to them.
[00:50:54] Troy Van Vliet: Because all those things are decisions in love, It’s aren’t a choice.
[00:51:00] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: It’s a choice. Love is a choice. And when you enter into marriage, you make the choice, a lifelong choice. And so it’s that battling and being willing in those day to day decisions. I have a, if you don’t mind, a story of my dad.
[00:51:21] So my father died, I think fifteen years ago now. So the day he died, he got up, he’d always get up early, go for a bike ride. And he had a heart condition. So, he got up early, was going to go for a bike ride and had a massive heart attack. And my mom heard him.
[00:51:46] Troy Van Vliet: Sorry.
[00:51:47] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Yeah. You know what? The beauty is he was prepared. He a man prepared for death. And massive heart attack falls to the ground, to the floor.
[00:51:58] My mom hears and comes out, rushed to the hospital and he ends up dying in the hospital. So my mom comes home and she sits down at the dining room table right where my dad had phoned. And she looks down and my dad had brought the newspaper in and opened it to her favorite section with all the word puzzles and things that she loves to do. And so she looks down and she sees, and to this day, it has she’ll speak about this, that the last thing my dad was thinking about when he died was her good in such a simple way, you know, and in such a simple act.
[00:52:42] Troy Van Vliet: That just
[00:52:45] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: for the rest of her life, she knows her husband.
[00:52:48] Troy Van Vliet: Do we ever need those? I need that reminder. I do. I think my wife’s listening. She watches this, she’s going be like, okay, so what are you doing for you today?
[00:53:00] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Dishes need to be done. But I think it’s those day to day dying to self for love of the other. The other thing I think in terms of relationship with our children, with your children within the family, that you really give yourself to the relationship, especially with the children who maybe are walking away from the faith or are living lifestyles that are contrary to what you had hoped for them, that you keep working on the relationship, keep bridging the relationship. Because it’s in the relationship that if you have a healthy, good, strong relationship with your children, then you can challenge them in ways and how they’re living and what they’re choosing.
[00:53:53] Troy Van Vliet: Because you’ll have developed that rapport of respect and they’ll listen or are more likely to listen.
[00:53:59] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Yeah, exactly. They might push back, but they might push back in a different manner than if you’re holding them in and they really, truly believe you delight in them, that they really, truly believe that you desire that relationship with And so I think continue working on those relationships with our children. Very, very important.
[00:54:22] Troy Van Vliet: It is. We play Uno a lot, especially with my youngest one, Annika. She’s good at it. Kicks my butt every now and then. But it’s a little thing that especially even if we’re bickering or this or that or, you know, it’s like, you know what, okay, it’s fifteen minutes before you go to bed.
]
[00:54:39] That’s a couple of games.
[00:54:40] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: That’s great.
[00:54:42] Troy Van Vliet: And it’s funny. I just see her demeanor change totally. Totally. We’re doing UNO?
[00:54:46] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Yeah, exactly.
[00:54:48] Troy Van Vliet: And even if it’s just a few minutes with dad and we’re just talking and, you know, complimenting each other, harassing each other above our cards or whatever. I try to do those little things just to try and stay engaged as much as it’s hard.
[00:55:02] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: It’s hard.
[00:55:04] Troy Van Vliet: Easy when you’re trying to get things done to just ignore. It’s like, okay, you’re good over there. Okay, good. And that’s another decision. It’s
[00:55:14] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: another choice. Right.
[00:55:15] Troy Van Vliet: Looking to go up or to go up and say a prayer before they go to bed.
[00:55:19] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: That’s right. Moment soften their hearts in some way and so you connect. There’s a Doctor. Neufeld who does a lot with parents in terms of their relationship with their children. And he will say, You need to connect before you direct.
[00:55:39] So, their eyes, get their hearts and then you can say what you need to And I think that’s great within the family. I think we could all learn from that within the church. Know, does a pastor have the hearts of his people?
[00:55:56] Troy Van Vliet: Are great words.
[00:55:56] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Connect before
[00:55:57] Troy Van Vliet: you You see that as an employer as
[00:56:01] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Absolutely, a coach, a coach. When he has his players hearts, he can ask him to do anything.
[00:56:12] Troy Van Vliet: That’s wonderful. Sister, thank you so much for your time today. Thank you for what you do and for your commitment to your faith and to what you do here. The Vancouver Archdiocese, I’m sure so many families have benefited from it and I have benefited from having you here today.
[00:56:29] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: It’s my pleasure.
[00:56:30] Troy Van Vliet: And I’m sure everybody tuning in and listening to the podcast are going to really enjoy the words that you shared today. And we hope to get you out to our school.
[00:56:41] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: That would be wonderful.
[00:56:42] Troy Van Vliet: And yeah, that you might be able to engage and encourage some kids and give them some hope in areas as well and some options.
[00:56:51] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Yes, Things that’s to consider. Absolutely. Thank you. And just for all those who are listening to know that we as a community pray daily for our families within the archdiocese and for their needs. So, we’ll
[00:57:06] Troy Van Vliet: continue Doctor. To bless you for that and we’ll pray for you as well.
[00:57:09] Sr. John Mary Sullivan: Thank you.
[00:57:09] Troy Van Vliet: All Thanks everybody and be sure to like and subscribe. For Sister John and Mary, We really appreciate everything you do. So thank you all and we’ll see you you again in a couple of weeks.
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